 |
| Francis Chan |
I've been pondering some astute comments by Sarah Brubaker, when she was a student in this class, regarding the tension between the emphasis on doing or feeling as a characteristic of discipleship with the core of the gospel which seems to be more grace-driven. Leaders like Bill Hull and Dallas Willard can easily be misunderstood as emphasizing discipleship as doing in contrast to the traditional Protestant emphasis on being in the grace of Christ.
 |
| Matthew Lee Anderson |
The March 2013 issue of Christianity Today had a very fine critique of this line of thinking by Matthew Lee Anderson, a graduate of the Torrey Honors Institute at Biola University. He also studied at Oxford University.
Anderson gently challenges this kind of extreme discipleship on several levels. Ultimately he contends that the so-called radicals are not radical enough.
For this assignment I would like you to read his article Here Come the Radicals (.pdf). I am enabling the comments option on this blog (click on the comments link below or there may actually be a box for comments -- depending on which web browser you use) and I want to invite you to leave your impressions of the article. What jumped out at you? Do you agree or disagree with him? Etc.
I will be assigning 10 points each time you leave a well developed comment in response to the article or someone else's comments about the article. You can earn up to 50 points for this assignment. [Note that I have left the comments from previous students. You are encouraged to interact with them in your own comments. But realize that they will probably not respond to your comments.]
If you have trouble downloading the article, which is a .pdf file, or if you have trouble leaving comments please let me know right away -- bboydston@piu.edu. Thanks!!!
This kind of radical behavior like committing to sponsoring Compassion International for one year as a church or moving to slum neighborhoods surely is not enough to fulfill the ministry we have been called to. But why the criticism of good works? I believe that the church is a dynamic network of believers all over the world that have been called to various ministries in very different ways. Yes, we have the same general ministry and commission to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." But the "how" to do this is not specific. Different cultures and different locations require different methods to reach the lost. This was true with Paul and how he changed his message to the Athenians in Athens so they could relate tho their worship of the "unknown God". If this is true for a message, why can't it be true for our good works? If this community these men are involved in consist of middle to high class Christians that are too comfortable, maybe their needs to be a catalyst for change. Maybe it needs to be more radical in nature? I am reminded of something I heard at a John Maxwell leadership conference. I will paraphrase if for you. "God enables us by His grace at times to arrest the attention of onlookers and say, hey you, over here, look at me. And when the stage is set and all eyes are on you, this is when you pull back the theater curtains and show the world who God really is. The awe inspiring, Holy, magnificent creator of the universe who is calling you to follow Him."
ReplyDeleteWhile this radical movement might be controversial, isn't it still a movement with the premise of winning souls to Christ? Sure it is not an idea that solves every problem plaguing the Christian church, but maybe it works for them, in their area of influence, in their season of life. I think there is much we could learn from their ministry. It shows me that a passion for Christ ignites creativity and imagination. I believe that their acts of faith and generosity will not be in vain, even if misguided. God does not look at outward appearances as man does, but He looks at the heart. It is really a matter of the hearts intention here. If these men of the church have the right intentions and motives, my belief is that God will use them and correct discrepancies along the way. I only wish every group of believers in the church would have a passion like this to put feet to their discipleship and be used by God in whatever creative ministry God has given them. To me, controversy is a good sign that we are moving in the right direction. Jesus was the most controversial man in history. Most of that controversy came from the church. I don't think this article was an attack at the radical ministries, but a little less focus on the negative aspects may have been more preservative of Christian unity. Aren't we wounded by enough doctrinal divisions among us? I choose to take home the positives of their ministry and I also choose to be inspired to grow more as a disciple. I commend those so called "radicals" for moving. If at the very least, they are moving. I want to move too.
-Michael Bageant
Check out Francis Chan's message http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogRJHOr5fEo give a critique of his heart and see if what he is doing is Holy Spirit driven. Is God present in his ministry? Exodus 33:14-16 has relevance.
Delete
DeleteThis article is an awakening message to me, because I have been sponsoring one child for 1 year and six months and then I gave up when my first born son came through by the grace of God. This radical movement of Platt church it is great and it is a result of spending time in prayer and reading the word of God. I can say this because the sacrificial act I did for one year and six months it came to me through prayer and reading God Word every day.
I believed that pastors are responsible for the welfare of the church and also responsible to lead the church into ministry and the church have to follow the biblical leading of the pastor. The five components Platt applied in his church are the key for their success in their radical movement. God gave different talent to every christian in the world to go out and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,... When I look at this great commission I felt that, what Platt and his church members did is not enough. The reason I say is not enough because they just supporting the need there and they don’t go out and make disciples. I know that the Holy Spirit leading every church and every individual to do certain ministry in every places. OO
I'm on minute 28 of Francis Chan's message, and all I can say is "WOW!" We are legos...
ReplyDeleteI agree with Michael that while the Radical movement is intense, I’m not sure the criticism of the literature needed to be as harsh as the article was. I think that the Radical movement can be good in some contexts but not as effective in other contexts. There is a way that we need to contextualize to people where they are at. The gospel will look different (not have a different content) to different types of people in different places in their lives, in different cultures and socio-economical situations. So while I agree with the Radical movement in some situations I would also agree with Anderson in other situations. I think the incredible thing about the gospel (and of course not just the "salvation gospel", the gospel that changes people's lives) is that it meet ALL people's felt needs. Those felt needs are going to be different, so the gospel will meet them differently, therefore we need to be willing to, and able to contextualize to those felt needs. The "Radical movement" can be (and seems to be) very impacting in those specific areas; however I think that it should not, nor could not, be employed in all contexts. -Sarah
ReplyDeleteGood thinking, Michael and Sarah! Very good. So, is it possible to be really radical without becoming legalistic about the discipleship expectations? If so, what does that look like?
ReplyDeleteHey Brad! I was actually going to comment about that too. That it seems to me that being Radical could (key word) easily turn into a type of legalism in and of itself. I guess that happens when we decide how holy we are based on how much we give up and sacrifice, or on measuring our own holiness (or God's pleasure in us) based on a comparison of how much we give up vs how much someone else is giving up. It could also cause major division in the Church if people are measuring OTHER PEOPLE'S holiness or acceptability based on how much they give up. I could imagine that this movement would have an incredible amount of peer-pressure along with it; and when something isn't owned by someone it could have a hard time being sustained. I would think that this could cause major division and burn-out if swinging too much into legalism. -Sarah
DeleteAnd let me think about what it would look like if not on the legalistic side :) ... -Sarah
DeleteYes, I believe this is quite possible. As long as the radical behavior is based on direction from the Holy Spirit and not fleshly desires. Its a matter of communicating God's purpose with the rest of the church and remaining accountable. If God places a conviction by the Holy Spirit on someones heart, enabling them to reach the lost in creative new ways, that person's focus is on fulfilling the mission God has given them. Not legalism. They then, need to make this mission clear to the church body so that it can be accomplished in unity. Take John the Baptist for example: He had a mission given by God(Mat 3:3)fulfilling Isa 40:3. His focus was not on judging the church against legalistic expectations to disciple as extreme as he did. But He may have expected to find supporters. But characteristically in the bible, prophets were alone and could care less if any agreed or followed their radical mission, as long as the God's mission was accomplished. They were more concerned about the people following the one true God, not them.
DeleteThankfully God has given us all the same mission of discipling the nations and only the means or creativity for how this is done changes.
If anything, I think legalism comes more from those on the outside who stand in judgement over the movement of God because it comes in the form of God using those the church would not expect. The weak, foolish, and rejected. When many people become saved and the numbers of followers to a congregation increases and word gets to the media, a certain jealousy in the church surfaces. With all the denominations out there, someone is bound to criticize. But I think taking a step back and taking off our world view glasses for a moment might allow the Holy Spirit to open eyes. Could it be that the denominational divisions we have set up could actually hinder our acceptance of new creative discipling movements of God? -Mike Bageant
On the opposite side there is too much sitting around comfortable inside our churches. While it is easy to become Legalistic in doing good works it is also easy to not do good works in order to gain access to a culture or people. Platt's idea is good and I think it is a great reminder of where we need to be focused on the second commandment. I agree that it is not the best for all contexts but, definitely serves as a great encouragement to not sit back inside our churches and do nothing.
DeleteIn my life I find that I can influence more people by modeling what needs to be done than in putting on a big prophetic show or production. We avoid legalism by focusing on the positives. It's not that we ignore the negatives but that we put our primary energy into affirming those who are moving in the right direction. That keeps us humble because we're looking for what God is doing in a particular situation and seeing his Word not so much as a legal code book from which we draw rules or even principles but as a story which captures our imaginations and hearts, drawing us into what he is doing.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I tell people that I'm a "fireman." I'm constantly on the lookout for fire. When I see some I rush to the scene and fan the flames.
I also find that I usually get more mileage by asking honest questions than by making prophetic statements. But this might be because I'm more of a pastor than a prophet. Of course, when people realize that I love them and that I'm not feeding my own ego or working through my own personal issues I can say things prophetic in nature and they are received not as rules but as guidance.
Yeah Brad, I totally agree. If you are simply living and modeling what needs to be done it takes the measurement standard out and allows for the Holy Spirit to convict as opposed to people laying guilt trips. That's huge towards staying away from legalism. I think another one would be to make a continuous effort to love the Church as well as those who are outside the Church. In this type of movement there is often more negatives than positives (like you said, we need to focus on the positives and keep affirming). Jesus loves the Church and affirms us and doesn't just get fed up with us and leave us in our filth and materialism or whatever issue a particular church is dealing with...so why should we do any differently than our Head? And when we choose to love the Church instead of measuring the church or focusing on negative things, then we are living by the Spirit and not the Law, or legalism. - Sarah
DeleteI think this is a fair observation to say that we avoid legalism by focusing on the positives. If we focused on the positives of these "radical" movements and affirming them, we could leave the judging and critisism to Yahweh who is ultimately in control of what happens with new movement anyway.
DeleteI like your point that your particular world view comes from a pastor's lens so I can understand how your view might be different than someone who is in an evangelist or prophetic type of ministry. It reminds me that we are just members of a body as a whole. This does not mean that all members of that body will be located in one local church. Other ministries or parts of the body could be located on other sides of the world. For example, super natural healings like Paul performed happened in areas where there was a need. People were crippled, lame, blind, and sick. These ministries may thrive in places of poverty or lack of medical facilities because there is a great need. If many miracles were being reported in the Phillippines by a certain ministry that received a lot of media attention, would there be criticism from the church? I have been witness to this sort of criticism in my own life, and I wonder why the focus was not on lives that were changed?
The man whom Jesus healed that was blind from birth was faced immediately with criticism from the church because they were focused more on legalism than the fact that this man was healed after being blind all his life. What a praise worthy moment. What a miracle! But the criticism remained.
I believe the most important thing here is that we focus on the most important character trait Jesus commanded us to have and this is love. And even more so, love for one another in the church body no matter the denomination. so that outsiders will see that love. Jesus taught us to be that good Samaritan neighbor. Too much argument over what is right or wrong about this or that ministry could give the wrong message. If we spent more time talking about the great things this or that ministry is doing and not just talking about it but supporting those positives through donations or letters or sharing sermons, there might be less hinderances to the body. I don't mean to offend, but I feel very passionate about denominational barriers. Of every church that was written about in Revelation, all of them had something wrong with them. This gives me a hint that not one church in the world is 100% perfect or right and that we need eachother. We need to be in unity and compliment one another. Our self righteousness will cause legalism too.
-Mike Bageant
DeleteMake sure that you are "signing" your comments so I know who has said what.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate what Anderson says about the "radical movement" "under emphasizing the less spectacular, frequently boring, and overwhelmingly anonymous elements that make up much of the Christian life" (pg. 23). Much of the Christian life, at least in my totally finite experience, is tough, menial day-to-day things. Decision to spend time with the Holy Spirit, when we really don't feel like it. Saying no to watching that movie that we know we really shouldn't, being intentionally hospitable and friendly to our non-believing neighbors even when we worked for the last 12 hours and are exhausted of people and ministry. Those are the things that we deal with on a daily basis and those, I think, are the most important aspect of a Christian life because that is what life is. Ministry is often extremely hard and rough and dirty and there are sides of opposition both on the Christian front and the non-Christian front. I can see how the "radical movement" would make these things, things as simple as throwing a baby shower for a young teenager or coaching a middle school basketball team for the sole purpose of forming spiritual relationships, less valuable or less glorious or menial. I could also see where the "radical movement" would create a desire or a felt need to be involved in the big, "important" things that are going on...but if everyone did those things, and if everyone moved out of the rich neighborhoods to the ghetto, then who would love the rich? Who would be Jesus to those people? Again, like you said, Brad, I think it comes back to balance. Balancing being part of the big, glorious aspects of ministry while understanding that much of ministry is small, menial, and dirty. That there are just as many rich people who need Jesus to be contextualized to them as there are poor people. -Sarah
ReplyDeleteSarah, just curious, have you listened to any of the "so labeled" radical messages by either of the pastors mentioned in that article? They have always said that those menial tasks are important. And they also believe that there are those who need to reach the rich people too. The fact is, the ministries they do are needed because if just the rich get ministered to, who would minister to the poor? They are one church who has been given a calling by God to reach a certain group. They are not telling all churches to conform to their ministry nor are they claiming that other more menial ministries like a baby shower or coaching a basketball team is deemed less important. It is dangerous for anyone to personalize a ministry and relate it to themselves without questioning, okay has God put me in the place I am at to be used in this way, or is God telling me to stop and go join a ministry such as this "radical" movement. If not, then God wants you to stay put and be effective in these seemingly small day to day tasks that can actually be very important to the kingdom. I think the goal here should be to embrace what God is doing with others around the world in their situations and praise God for it. Condemning a ministry because it doesn't fit into how God is using you is just not fair. It seems to me you have very valid and well intended concerns about this "radical movement" and the dangers it could pose. But have you considered or researched the actual results of their ministry outreaches? They are doing wonderful things. If anything, at least we are given creative ideas for how to reach the lost should we ever be prompted to do so. I for one choose to praise and encourage such a ministry because they heard the call and acted. They repeatedly address in every one of their ministries, "If God is not in this, its pointless" They say over and over that it is what they have been directed by God to do, they think its the direction they are being called. They know they are faced with criticism from the church the most. But they are God pleasers not man pleasers. I wish we could just focus on the changed lives and changed hearts and not all the things that "could" go wrong with what they are doing. Wouldn't it be great if all the world encouraged and lifted us up for doing the menial tasks like you mentioned and not picking at all the negative things about what we are doing? I bet our plank would be much bigger than our brother's speck. -Mike
DeleteSomething that is also interesting to think about is that we don't have to find balance in our specific local church because one local church might be called to a large and what seems to be considered "extreme" while another church is called to a more seemingly normal or less controversial area. In the big picture scheme there is balance as a whole body of churches. Looking at your own church and assessing whether a ministry you are called to is too extreme or radical, is not a good assessment, more the assessment should be whether or not God has tasked your church and it is Holy Spirit guided or not. Extreme, radical or not shouldn't matter. All of Jesus' ministries here on earth could be considered radical. In the end they crucified Him for it. -Mike
DeleteAgain, I invite anyone to give a balanced critique after listening to one of their messages: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogRJHOr5fEo -Mike
DeleteI wanna comment on what Sarah said about the Rich. I have a friend who's husband was recently called from the poor place they were serving adn back into life in a really wealthy community. This has been really hard for her becuase for one She and her family cannot afford the expensive clothes and things that these people can. Therefore they feel inferior in a sense and for her it has been a real trial in order to minister there. She is still involved in her old community even though far away. It is much easier to minister there and it is clear God is using her there. But, what about the church and community in which they live. She also is called to minister there to the rich. I think it would be Radical for someone to go to the rich to do ministry. It is a hard ministry and the hardest part is not being good enough and being Radical would be willing to give of popularity and even acceptance to an extent in order to show the rich what truly matters. This would be crazy Radical for me! Can you imagine me in Skinny Jeans and Make up and heels!!! Ollek!!!
DeleteIn my previous church, we often called most church members ‘lay members’. From Church history I learned that there were times when the church had different spiritual levels of groups of people. Many Korean churches give too much honor or power to pastors. Sometimes pastors even become idols for church members. I do not mean to put down all the pastors but some pastors act like they are the rulers or judges. This idea comes from lay members in the churches that think that they are only lay members, so they must follow whatever the pastor says. Most of them believe that they are not called as disciples or missionaries. All they need to do is attend church services and activities. Not only that, a big number of people who attend church sin more than the rest of the world, so respect for Korean Christianity has rapidly deteriorated over the last ten years.
DeleteFrancis Chan came to Onnuri Church in Korea a few years ago and gave a great challenging message. He said that, “You studied the Bible and prayed enough. Now stand and act out what you have learned. There are countless places waiting for your help and the gospel.” Francis Chan was asking people to have a radical change in God if they are real Christians.
God gave tremendous blessings in Korea’s past hundred years. Now Korea has many mega churches and a big number of Christians, but we are following the way of American Christianity. I believe that this is the time for all the lay members to have true radical change in God.
Lydia
Radical movement intends and aspires to react against the modern and postmodern trends such as materialism, individualism and hedonism which arose within the church. Such trends would undermine the faith of the Christians by living in the comforts and forget the outside world. Hence, the radical movement with its radical, true, and faithful expectation to react against them is something praiseworthy. However, that kind of reaction should just remain within where those trends arouse. The reaction should be measurable and controllable and to what extent it should influence. It is because what truly happens in North America is not true in South America. Or it is just within the North American churches they are also not the same experience since every church has its own experience, emphasis and traditions. Thus, claiming radical movement to be applied in every church is an absurd rhetoric because different tradition and emphasis need different approach and in some extent it needs slightly different ways to convey the message.-- Harnolx
ReplyDeleteI generally agree with the ideas behind this radicalism. But at the same time I am concerned about the possibility that we could be creating an elite class of disciples. That is, the way that the challenge to discipleship is presented makes it very difficult for ordinary people to be disciples. In the introduction to his book the Cost of Discipleship, Dietrich Bonhoeffer cautioned against putting discipleship out of reach of ordinary people. For me, the issue then becomes how do we help ordinary people to grasp the grace of Christ in such a way that they resist modernism and individualism, and hedonism while they live ordinary lives working as farmers and fishermen and store owners.I would rather hear stories of people who live out a radical faith in common circumstances than of people who do dramatic and highly visible projects. There is room for both but I feel called to focus on more ordinary people.
ReplyDeleteHi Brad, what do you mean when you say, "creating an elite class of disciples? Does it mean that those people who mastermind the radical movement such as David Flatt, Francis Chan, Shane Claiborrne, and Kyle Idleman ask money and material things or they have tendency to do that? --Harnolx
DeleteOne example might be the situation I was in a few years ago. It seemed like God had put me in the hitchhiker ministry. I nearly never picked up hitchhikers at night before this. However, at that time, I wound up finding folks in need when I got off work at 2AM. One guy was cheating on his wife and needed to get back home to her before she woke up. I did not ahve to say much. He knew what he needed to do. My role was just to give a ride. At another time, a family had wrecked their car. Unbelievably, the parents trusted me to take their kids home while they waited for the wrecker that I called.
DeleteThat "ministry" stopped for a few years until a few weeks ago. I found a very nervous young lady who was seriously "down on her luck". She told me that she was not a believer, but she had felt moved to pray to the God of her grandfather while she was wandering in the dark looking of gasoline to revive her dead truck. Then I showed up. She was starving, so I gave her some food that I scrounged from the fridge at work. I also gave her a Bible. She eagerly accepted both.
Having faith in God to protect us when we come upon strangers at night is part of being a disciple. Picking up hitchhikers is nothing big like funding a ministry in india for a year, but God still was at work in it. If I were not striving to live for God, I would not have the guts to pick up strangers in need at 2AM. Mike Sabin
11/13/16 A testimony from the Church member
DeleteToday during our Sunday service one married couple, who were elected for leadership, shared their testimony. The husband said that he had attended church since he was a child, but always trembled from the fear of death. He continued to do bad things with his friends. He married a lady, but their marriage was in a terrible condition. His life was in a miserable condition. In 2013, with one of his friend’s invitation, he came to Christ Bible Fellowship church. While he was listening to the sermon he read Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” He was astonished by this verse, which made him wonder if he was really saved. He had found out that he was not born again in Christ. He confessed all his sin and reconciled with the Creator, and began to live a different life. He said that it does not mean he is perfect now but he has stopped the sin he confessed to God. For this reason his friends mocked him and ridiculed his changed life, but he had comfort and joy from God. His marriage has been restored as well as his wife. Both of them were in a terrible condition in their lives, but they had a radical change in their life. Now he is teaching teenagers and works in many ministries at the Church.
While I was listening to the testimony I cried and I agree that whoever meets Christ in their lives must have radical changes!
Lydia
No, it does not mean that they are asking for money. Elite means that are in a superior class. It's more like higher status.
ReplyDeletePeople start thinking that you have to do everything just like them in order to be a successful disciple. If they convince others of that, then there starts to become an elite class of disciples.
For example, if you read some of these guys you might begin to get the impression that the only real disciples of Jesus are those who go to serve among the poor in urban ghettos. That is an important ministry. But we don't want to give the impression you have to do exactly what they do in order to be a real disciple. If we do that then we discourage those who are called to be disciples in other contexts. They start to feel like they are not good enough even if they are being faithful.
I still don't understand when you say' Elite means that are in a superior class. Does it means that they are more spiritual than those in the urban ghettos? Or they regard themselves to be high class in spiritual level because than other pastors, theologians or missionaries because they serve the urban ghettos? --Harnolx
DeleteIt means that in some peoples' minds they are more spiritual because they serve in the urban ghetto.
DeleteIn some parts of the church you are given greater status if you are a pastor. If you are a missionary serving across the ocean you are given even more status -- an elite status. Unfortunately, sometimes pastors and missionaries will start to believe that they are an elite class of disciples. And they will communicate to people, perhaps unintentionally, that if you are going to be a truly committed disciple of Jesus Christ you need to become a pastor or missionary. That weakens the discipleship of Christians who have a totally different call. In my comments I am simply suggesting that there is danger in the rhetoric of the radicals. That danger is that they could be creating yet another type of elite disciple. And that further diminishes disciples who are called to follow Jesus in a different context.
From church history we learn about revival and the cyclical movements of faith up and down. Nowadays, we are living in a wicked era. All nations, societies, and communities seem to have lost justice and goodness. For decades, America was the nation known as a Christian nation, but faith and goodness are fading away. High knowledge made people prideful and self-centered. However, God is using pastors to give us a wakeup call. Even though we are living in a postmodern era, God wants us to stand as his disciples. We cannot compromise with the world, we have power in God, so we need to live as disciples. The wicked world is threatening all Christians, but as church history teaches us, God always guides us to live lives which belong to the Kingdom of God.
DeleteLydia
The critique of the wording that some of the radical life proponents used fell a bit flat on me. The English language changes with each generation. As much as an oldie such as myself does not like that, I have to get over it. Rhetorical style should not be a determining factor in whether writers heretics or on the mark.
ReplyDeleteI do get a bit nervous about drawing many Christians into big causes or lifestyle fads without the element of spiritual formation included. Many "country club" attendees have no idea what it means to be led by the Holy Spirit into various Church endeavors. Without a biblical basis for their life choices, life can either be on the sidelines or a trapeze act, swinging from one big "radical" cause to another. Living the way Jesus wants us to live may be as "uneventful" as helping folks in a nursing home or as "crazy" as serving as a missionary in central China. Either way, we do the life Jesus called us to do much better if we are disciples, not Sunday spectators. Spiritual discipline will enable us to be used by God to change the world, in the little things and the big things. Being a disciple of Jesus is all the "radical" that the world needs. Mike Sabin
I am totally agree with what Mike Sabin said. It is very dangerous to do such a big thing without spiritual formation. It is very important to know and to understand how a person is led by the Holy Spirit because if you don't know and understand it, it very easy for devil to make you think that every thing you do from your own effort and power. Without knowing exactly what the Holy Spirit does in the life of a person that person own life would always be on the negative side. Also, he /she will not understand how to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Arisao
ReplyDeleteThank you Mike and Arisao for your thoughtful comments. I wonder, though, if the "radicals" are really suggesting an activist approach that is void of spiritual formation. Might they even see the activism as a spiritual discipline that God is using to form us into mature believers? (One of several disciplines.) Where we can go off the deep end is if we think that the activism has to be high profile and unique. Mike nails it, "Living the way Jesus wants us to live may be as 'uneventful' as helping folks in a nursing home or as 'crazy' as serving as a missionary in central China." I would suggest that perhaps living out the Christ life in obscurity is one of the greatest challenges for American believers -- where everyone seems to want fame and recognition for whatever they do. Islanders are perhaps not so prone to such silliness.
ReplyDeleteBeing a disciple in obscurity was a big challenge during St. Anthony's day when esciticism took off. I do think that the challenge has become greater now, especially among folks who are socially connected through media. It just struck me that very few people spend as much time connecting to God to discern His ways as much as they connect to others (possibly people they do not even know) via social media. We have gotten really warped. Facebook is quite a testament to our propensity to be fame junkies. (OK, I'm biased. I do not have a FB account.) Mike Sabin
DeleteI am fairly sure that these guys would not attempt an activist approach without spiritual formation. I have seen quite a few Francis Chan videos and I believe that the Spirit has really gifted him with being able to see things that most of us miss. Even in the videos, he is seen spending time alone with God out away from the usual madness of a busy life.
DeleteThis reminds me of the spiritual formation class I took way back in 2010. A book called Sacred Pathways (written by Gary Thomas?) showed many ways to connect to the Spirit. I personally like getting out in the backyard near the streams and the bamboo and just praying. Unfortunately, I am not very disciplined in doing that. I rarely get time out there, so I am not a stellar disciple. I still have time in the morning for Bible reading, but that is not the same as really purposefully seeking connection with the Holy Spirit. If you see me with a lot of mosquito bites, you can suspect that I have resumed my favorite discipline.
I forgot to give my name - Mike Sabin.
DeleteThings like this of what Platt's church did is not gonna happen without the Spirit behind it. Even those people or the leaders who are doing this kind of movement for the church, for sure the Holy Spirit is with them. In other words, they are truly born again. A non-born again will never think or willing to do this kind of movement for others because the Holy Spirit is not with them. He/she will not happy to do this kind because there is no love within themselves. Only a true believer can do or have heart to do this kind for others. Arisao
DeleteMy mother
DeleteMy mother was a Buddhist until she was forty years old. She had a very hard married life with my father. One day my brother became a born again Christian, so he asked my mother to believe in Jesus Christ. My mother was serious about believing in God because she had an unknown sickness. She felt like she could die any day. For this reason, she was anxious to solve her problem of sin. She prayed all night to have the forgiveness of her sins and wanted to become a real child of God. One night she felt the light from God come and she felt that her sin was washed away by Jesus Christ! Since then my mother’s life totally changed. She read the Bible over and over, even for four to five hours every day. Almost all day she prayed and prayed for hours and hours, attending all the services in the Church. Most of all she had great joy and comfort from God. A few months after that she printed out her testimony and visited many houses on Guam. Every weekend my mother and some Christian friends went to Two lovers’ point to hand out the Four Spiritual Laws. She went to many islands to share the gospel, made a Korean dance team with the gospel story, which did performances in many places. Sometimes she visited the hospital to share the gospel and help sick people. My mother is a great model for my faith in God. Her whole life totally changed. For this reason, when I heard the word radical I could agree that the radical change is not optional, but a mandatory attribute of a truly born again Christian.
Lydia
I really think that what David Platt and his church did was a biblical thing. This is what a radical movement should do. They should do this kind of movement starts from their own backyard and then to the whole city, the State and off course to the needy people in the whole world. I also think that if any radical movement do this, they are doing what Acts 1:8 says.
ReplyDeleteWhen you post a comment make sure that you include your name so that I can give you credit.
ReplyDeleteHello Brad, that was me Arisao
ReplyDeletePlatt's church is doing some cool things for God. It is an encouraging example. One thing he said that is good, but can be twisted is that we should commit to whatever Jesus says and believe what we have heard. Most church denominations start off with that in mind. However, they appear to get derailed along the way by mistaken interpretations of the Word or adhering to some misguided teaching. How does someone know that the radical faith they think they want to live is actually biblical? Seminary students tend to have a huge advantage in answering this question, especially after having training in exegesis. What does a normal pew-sitter do for guidance when faced with the prospect of involvement in a huge, exciting project that may or may not be what the Lord wants? I tend to think prayer is the route to take in this situation. I am glad that Platt's church prayed so long before taking the leap into what they did. I have not seen this done so fervently in many cases of prospective church projects. Mike Sabin
DeleteYes Mike, it is true that it can be twisted only if the leaders are not truly born again christian. It can also be twisted if the leaders are not spend much of their time with Lord in reading the Bible, talk to God and ask God for help in prayer and have fellowship with other Christians so that they can help each other, encourage each other, teach each other and lastly correct each other. I truly believe that if a leader or pastor spend much of his/her time with the Lord what Platt said will not be twisted. Arisao
DeleteOne thing that we do as pastoral leaders is build crap detectors into our people -- detectors that might not need activating for many years. But when they hear something that is really not right -- they can identify it as off-base -- even if they cannot put a finger on what is wrong with it. As leaders we have left an imprint on their lives by the way that we are -- and by the way that we handle the biblical message. So, even those without formal Bible training should be able to identify when a message is not quite right.
DeleteWow, that is a really good way to put it. We do often get something like a "check engine light" when we hear something like that. The warning may not lead us directly to the diagnosis, but we can search the Owner's manual or pray for the Spirit to help us to find the problem. Mike Sabin
DeleteIn this article we read that, ”To join Platt and his church on their journey away from the American dream toward “a radical faith in the radical Jesus”, Platt gives 2 preconditions, (1) “we must commit to believe whatever Jesus says” and (2) “commit to obey whatever we have heard” We know that these two statement are in quotations and these are well known statement. It came from the Bible because the Bible contains many passages that teach the “trust and obey for happiness” and it popular by the well known song “trust and obey for there’s no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey”
DeletePlatt and his church members they trust (believe) God and they commit to obey His word. So we can not twist this statement because it is rooted in His word. But if the statement mean every words we have heard we will obey, so it will be twisted. It is true that many misinterpretation of the word of God have been preach in the churches today. So as leaders and pastors in the churches, we have to join Platt and his church to live out the radical faith in the radical Jesus. OO
I would like to introduce a church that God has used to bring radical change in Korea. There was a lady who grew up with a strong Christian faith. She played piano in her church and attended one of the best Universities in Korea, even becoming a piano professor. However, her father’s business went bankrupt when she was very young. For this reason she married a man who was a doctor from a very rich family. She thought she would have a happy life forever. But she had a miserable marriage life due to her mother-in-law. For ten years she did not have any freedom. All she did was work as a house wife. After a few years she could not take it anymore, so she wanted to choose either suicide or divorce. At that time, she met God and started to read the Bible, meditating on the Word of God every day. She has had a radical change since then. The circumstances did not change, but she has trusted the power of God and has been transformed by meditating on the Word of God. She became a widow at age thirty eight, but her Bible sharing group ministry kept getting bigger and bigger. Thus she went to seminary and finished at age fifty. Then she planted a new church, which rented a public high school. The church grew quickly into a large church! This church is so different from other churches in Korea. More than ninety percent of the members do Bible meditation, including kindergartners. Many of them are ready to share their testimonies or meditations with others. Korean do not like to show their weaknesses or share about shameful things with other people; however, in this church many Christians share frankly about themselves. For this reason they have seen some great revivals. Korea also has a very high percentage of divorce, but in this church none of the young couples got divorces. It is amazing to see one widow’s radical transformation bring tremendous influence on others by God’s power.
Delete(This story is from Pastor Kim, Yang Jae 10/18/16)
Lydia
Re: Mike's comments on October 13th. I think that you are reading the situation well. How do we go about modeling a radical alternative without slipping into judgmentalism or appearing judgmental?
ReplyDeleteThis question leads well into Choung's evangelism tool. If we try to model radical Christ-like living without Jesus, our motivation will sour and judgmentalism creeps in. It's like jumping from the upper right circle directly to the lower left circle. As Choung stated, we must go through the lower right circle on the way to doing the kingdom work that characterizes the lower left circle. Jesus has to be our source of energy for kingdom life to work. This is how we can sustain a radical life that leads toward transforming the world. It worked well for the first Christ's first disciples. Now we should follow as intentionally as they did if we want to see God use us to expand the Kingdom and bring the world closer to what it was originally created to be. Mike Sabin
DeleteThis radical movement is really a great and a challenging message to me and I believed it will be challenging to many pastors and church members as well. This radical movement stated in the heart of a young man of God. “David Platt took the potion in 2006 at the age 27, he was certainly youngest megachurch pastor in America.” When he became a pastor of the congregation of The Church at Brook Hills “he proposed that their church “take India” pay for compassion international child survival program in the country for one year.” When I read this article I see that this young man had great faith in God and also had great passion for the whole world.
ReplyDeleteFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: He said, "I believe that God has uniquely created every one of His people to impact the world. Some may count it as idealistic, but I believe it is thoroughly biblical, rooted in Psalm 67:1-2, yet covering Scripture from beginning to end. God is in the business of blessing His people so that His ways and His salvation might be made known among all people." This are the saying of a man who knows God, he trusted in His word, and see himself as a servant of God.
I agree with Platt statement, “we mistakenly turn the radical Jesus of the bible into the comfortable Jesus of 21st century American culture.” Many of us pastors and many church members today we claimed that we are servant and followers of Jesus Christ but we don’t want to do what He commanded us to do. In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus said: “go and make disciples of all nations…” We take this command so lightly, because we don’t want to go out into the tough place. We enjoying our fellowship in our comfortable churches in our home place.
I just don’t know what to say, because I felt that I put my faith in a comfortable Jesus not in a radical Jesus. I did preached but only in my family and the church I served. I know the great commission but I don’t do anything for it. I know that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ but I’m afraid to go out and make disciple. Lord help me that will take to heart what I learned from this radical movement.
Orichy O
Orichy, it seems that you have hit on the reason that Jesus told the disciples that He would be with them always. He knew that, without Him, they would be afraid to out to the world and make disciples. It is amazing how we forget such an important part of this famous passage. We remember the command, but forget how the Lord would actually empower us to fulfill it. Because of this, we get demoralized when we look at the fallen world and wonder how God could use weaklings like us to change the world. Mike Sabin
DeleteMike, you know, many of us Christian know the great commandment and we put aside and pick up on secondary things. I believed we busy in many church programs and our daily activities and we forsake the Great Commission "to go and make disciple". It is true, that many forget that promise of companionship but many of us were satisfied with the good things we busy with in our churches and our communities. I believed we should spent more time in prayer and reading His word as Platt and his church did so the Lord will direct us in to the right direction.
DeleteOO
Just imagine what churches would be like if the non-busy folks warming the pews shared the belief stated in your last sentence. That would be a huge transformation for so many people. We hear about the large number of people who are wondering why theirs lives are so aimless, but they do not want to do what you suggest. God did not create us to just "tread water" and use our "get out of jail free" card when we graduate from this life. Fortunately, Platt and the others got their congregations and readers to actually seek God's leadership instead of complaining about their own aimlessness. MS
DeleteOrichy, I don't think that we picked up secondary things to do. I think, we just don't know what to do. I meant we don't how disciples people. The way I looked at our chuukese church, all we do is preaching and teaching. Only those people go to Bible Colleges know how to disciples other people. Most of the chuukese pastors don't know because they don't know anything about disciple. Arisao Aichem
DeleteArisao, what is the best way to correct that situation? Since I have never even set foot on any island in FSM, I would not be much help in understanding how things got the way they did. I have heard that it is difficult for many of the Bible college grads (who know what to do) to make suggestions like this to the senior pastors. Can those with a heart for discipleship do home study groups or cell groups without offending the established leadership? Mike S.
DeleteMike and Orichy, I'd jump in and add to your conversation -- except that I don't think that I could improve on your observations.
ReplyDeleteArisao and Orichy, what would happen if each pastor informally started to take a couple of young guys fishing a couple of times a month? While fishing they could informally talk about the challenges of following Jesus. It wouldn't require preparation or a discipleship program. Pastors would just start paying attention and spending time with a few people.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think that we make discipleship harder than it is. We try to create programs which enhance our status rather than developing relationships.
One thing I do is have a weekly breakfast and Bible study meeting with a few guys. It's at 6 AM on Tuesdays so you really have to want to be there. One of the guys that comes is our church chairman. Two of the guys who come are homeless (I buy their breakfast). And one of the guys who comes has never been to any other meeting of our church. But I met him at the public library, got to know him, and eventually invited him to my Bible study.
Together we talk about the Bible text for the upcoming Sunday. I prepare some questions ahead of time and we talk about how to live it out. And it helps me in my sermon preparation, too. After hearing what they think I can make my sermon more applicable to a wider group of people.
Of course, there are always going to be cultural barriers when you are involved in discipleship. For example, most people would consider it a waste of my time to meet so often with homeless men for Bible study. So we have to take the cultural expectations into account and then be willing to wisely do things that are counter-cultural. And that may mean that people will criticize you. But learning to deal with that in love is a part of your own discipleship.